CHARLES TEMPLETON (L), A CONTEMPORARY OF YOUNG BILLY GRAHAM (R), FELL AWAY FROM HIS FAITH AND BECAME AND ATHEIST.
A recent sermon by Pastor David Jeremiah has been weighing heavily upon my mind.
He recounted the true-life story of contemporaries William Franklin Graham and Charles Templeton, up and coming young evangelists who began their ministries during the 1940s.
Most thought Templeton, rather than Graham, would achieve greater things in the name of the Lord.
But, in fact, the former fell away from his Christian faith – actually declaring himself atheist – while the great Billy Graham remained a good and faithful servant of the Most High.
Pastor Jeremiah shared the story of Graham and Templeton to remind his congregation (as well as those of us watching on TV or listening on radio) that, as Christ followers, “we are expected to run with endurance the race that has been set before us.”
Yet, in his next breath, the pastor said that, while Templeton did not finish the race he started, he still has a place in God’s kingdom.
Because, said Pastor Jeremiah, it mattered not that Templeton renounced the Christian faith he espoused as a young evangelist, nor that he went to his grave an atheist, since he one time gave his life to the Lord, he’s secure for all eternity.
That is the doctrine preached in many, if not most Christian churches, with which I have the most difficulty:
Once saved, always saved.
No matter how it is preached, or by whom it is preached – including Pastor Jeremiah, whom I greatly admire – I am unable to accept it.
For why would the Apostle Paul encourage us to run with endurance the race set before us if simply answering an altar call one Sunday gives us a lifetime Get Out Of Hell Free card?
And speaking of the Apostle Paul, suppose his life story was reversed. Suppose he spent the first part of his adult life preaching Christ’s salvation, but the second part persecuting Christians.
Would he be today in Paradise?
I think not.
“For it is impossible,” the Scripture warns, “for those who were once enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
The takeaway from that Scripture is that it is not enough to give our lives to Christ for a season, then fall away from our faith. We do not have a free pass to sin as it pleases us. We are expected to abide in Christ, as He abides in us; to live our lives according to his Word.
So those of us who believe ourselves saved should not be deceived. The Scripture warns, “Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Those who abide in such sins will spend eternity separated from their Creator. Even if they were one-time Christ followers, like Charles Templeton.
There is no reply option to your latest reply Jack, so i will reply in the combox at the end, though i hope that will not hinder seeing the continuity.
You state, “some things are so obvious and while some people like to take a scripture and twist it like it’s never been twisted before, I am a simple guy. I just read what it says.”
This is close to being insolent, as i am not twisting Scripture while you proceed to render being “fallen from grace,” and making Jesus of “no effect,” who will profit them “nothing,” as just meaning that they no longer are interacting with Christ” and chastisement, yet the most straight forward and simple meaning of “nothing” as in Christ gaining them nothing, and of “no effect” as in Christ becoming of no effect, is that it means just that, nothing, as they would now be outside the salvific grace of God that is in Christ Jesus, which one enters into by faith, and is kept therein thru faith.
However, this most natural meaning of “nothing” is disallowed because it does not conform to your OSAS doctrine, and which prevents you from seeing or even allowing that this and other texts warn of forfeiting what faith obtained.
You justify this by trying to argue that since no person who tells a lie can gain heaven, then converts who deny the Lord and depart from the faith, such as the Galatians were in danger of doing (and Templeton did likewise in turning toward atheism, even if OSAS proponents must disallow that he ever was saved) and or by willful impenitent continuance in sin, (Heb. 10:25ff) are still saved by the very Christ whom they deny.
However, the reason the exclusion of liars or anyone who commits sin (Rv. 21:8,27) from eternal life does not exclude believers is because they are justified by faith which cleanses and sanctifies, a faith which characteristically follows the Lord, (Jn. 10:27) and repents from sin, while converts who die having impenitently denied the Lord in doctrine or in deed (as described: http://peacebyjesuscom.blogspot.com/2012/10/is-one-saved-always-saved-correct.html, and , which are referred to after their characteristics in Rv. 21:8,27; 22:15), have forfeited what faith appropriated are not in the salvific grace of God.
You further ask,”Now, let’s go back to my unanswered questions- At what point do we lose our salvation? I know what point I get saved so it should not be a difficult answer. Please give Bible reference.”
The answer has already been given (and more in my response here: http://peacebyjesuscom.blogspot.com/2012/11/osas-continued.html), Gal. 5:1-4 being one text (but which must disallow), which (as with Heb. 10:25 and other texts) reveals that as one is justified by faith by true repentant faith in the Lord Jesus (so that he/she would go to be with the Lord if they died that day), and which faith is manifest by changes in heart and life attesting to faith-repentance, so one loses salvation by likewise “denying the Lord that bought them” as submission to the Judaizers would be doing, making Christ of NO effect. And which is also done by denying Him as Lord by deciding to will-fully and impenitently engage in sin, and thus such usually separate themselves from a holy congregation. (Heb. 10:25-39)
“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. ” (Hebrews 3:6)
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. ” (Hebrews 3:12)
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.. as such “hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Heb. 10:26,29ff)
Yet, as a conversion may not be immediately clearly evident as true, likewise the choice to deny the faith may not always be readily apparent. But as 1John and other texts testify, a true saint is known by characteristically practicing righteousness, and repentance when convicted of not doing so, while denying the faith is manifest by overall practicing righteousness without Godly sorrow.
I will respectfully ask to end this conversation. One, you are getting testy, my words are becoming insulting to you which has never been my desire to do. Two, you are now going on and on repeating the same things which still does not change the meaning. Three – you are determined in your heart that you can lose your salvation and I don’t believe you will change that opinion so I waste my time to try to convince you. I will however give a parting shot. My belief (theory) is just as if one believes that Jesus paid the price for their sins but still needs Mary as a go between-that person never was saved as they added Mary to the equation. Additionally, if someone believes Jesus died for them while at the same time believe they could lose their salvation, they equally are as lost adding that Jesus could not keep them from falling as the Bible confessed Him doing.
You disreagard the salvation of the man in Cor. having an affair with his father’s wife. You ignore the passage that says no one can remove you… The list will go on and on but you are seeing it your way, so that is what you will see.
Thanks Pastor. Your’s is the last word on this thread.
Actually, I only see a truncated reply from me to you Jack, which was not due to my editing, and the reason it was (admittedly too) long is because I was attempting to respond to most all of your 1,000+ word post.
Maybe it would be better to ask you to explain what is meant by the texts I see warning believers of denying the faith, and forfeiting what was appropriated by it. I would begin with Gal. 5:1:4:
“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
Thanks
Sorry, Like I said, I wasn’t trying to put you down by my comment. It also was not too long just too out of the range of normal reading. Now you give me a verse that exhorts believers to be the best they can be in the faith. It warns them not to return to bondage, not to put things unto themselves that the Jews previously could not handle. In simpler terms, not to become legalistic. It in no way refers to a loss of salvation. Plenty of believers are off on some of their beliefs. Example, some believe they should worship on Sunday. That does not disqualify from salvation. it does bog them down in legalism.
The reason my reply was almost twice as long as yours was because doctrine requires more than a superficial examination, and dismissing Gal. 5:1-4 as simply being an exhortation “to be the best they can be in the faith,” and to avoid legalism is just that.
Paul is not simply telling these believers to avoid legalism in oirder to be better Christians, but warning that if they go thru with giving assent to a different gospel in which salvation is obtained by obedience to all the law, including the ceremonial ordinances fulfilled in Christ, then “Christ shall profit you nothing,” as Christ will become “of no effect unto you,” “ye are fallen from grace.”
You must therefore explain how being fallen from grace and Christ becoming of no effect unto them does not mean what this normally would imply, which is the opposite of what faith in Christ effected.
We can go to other verses after examining these, and please understand that I am not driven by a desire to attack OSAS, as I am willing to believe it as i once did, but I want to go where the truth leads, and thus this is an issue to commitment to sound exegesis more than just defending an interpretive point of doctrine.
“The reason my reply was almost twice as long as yours was because doctrine requires more than a superficial examination…” I am sorry you feel I am giving a superficial exam of the subject and also, for the second time, I did not complain about the length of your discussion.
with that said, some things are so obvious and while some people like to take a scripture and twist it like it’s never been twisted before, I am a simple guy. I just read what it says. We live in a two phase situation. When we are saved we are saved forever, no longer under the law. Being no longer under the law we can no longer be judged by the law however… people use this excuse not to give the the Church because they say they are not under the law. Tet Jesus said not one jot or title will pass away… So what is it? In life we are under the law. God will chastise us for killing, stealing, cursing, gossiping. yet we do not lose our salvation. Remember, it says liars will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Lie once, you are a liar and most people have lied much more than once. Gal merely points out that you are still subject to God’s chastisement.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Now let’s look at these versus without twisting them.
1-Be strong in the Liberty–what liberty? The freedom of the law and do not tangle yourself in the doctrines that force you to be a slave to the law
2- If you do that it will get you no where. (Your walk in Christ is inhibited by your doing it “your own way”)
3- talking about those who are truly unrepentant and a follower of the law not grace-showing those what it is truly like for those who still believe in the law.
4-If you continue in this way you have disconnected yourself from interacting with Christ. He will say, “Do it your way and see how far it gets you” He will not intervene as long as you have chosen to disobey-
5-self explanatory
No mention of losing salvation unless you make it say that.
Now, let’s go back to my unanswered questions- At what point do we lose our salvation? I know what point I get saved so it should not be a difficult answer. Please give Bible reference.
Also, if liars go to hell how does anyone escape hell?
How my response to Jack Wilson ended up being rendered as above, I know not, but it needed some editing anyway. What I did is post a response here (http://peacebyjesuscom.blogspot.com/2012/10/is-one-saved-always-saved-correct.html) to this subject, which did not get posted here, and later I will post my edited response to Jack Wilson there as well, if that is OK.
That’s OK with us.
I did reply, however in retrospect, I hope I did not sound insulting. His response really tired me out.
No worries, Pastor.
God bless you Jack Wilson; a true testimony to the unmerited gift of Salvation. That, as mentioned, is in Ephesians 2:8,9.
Also, I would like to bring up the fact that Christians are in the dispensation of Grace (Ephesians 3) and no longer under the Law (Galatians 3.) Romans 10:4 says it best, to mention a few!!!
I also would like to bring up the fact that “blasphemy” is the only unforgivable sin (Matthew 12:31.)
God Bless!!!
To those who’ve read this post and find the topic of particular interest, might I direct you to Free Republic, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2928714/posts, where this post also appeared, and where FReepers have an excellent thread going, with astute comments on both sides of the theological debate about eternal security?
Jack Wilson speaks the truth. My reply was more succinct but I agree completely. Perhaps it should be said “once born again, always born again,” because we are.
Mr. Templeton was never truly born again then. I don’t see a born-again Christian ever falling away and becoming an atheist. Stumbling, yes…turning their back entirely…..no.
Oh JP, after blog after wonderful blog that I have happily agreed with you I now have to respectfully , disagree with you. Although the one scripture you gave seems frightening , I believe you have interpreted it, incorrectly. That it has to do with those exposed to the greatness of God, even participated in Church activities, learning all the buzz words but he was never actually saved. We could probably argue that verse for a long time but as you know as well as I, the bible is not made on one verse but on the entire bible so let’s do this.
First let’s do the common sense . You rationalize that Paul could not have done the good and then returned to the evil and had gone to heaven.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The first explains that we are saved by God’s grace by our faith–not works. Yet with your conclusion we can become unsaved by works or the lack thereof. God, being a truly just God gave us all His rules in the bible so I need to ask, at what point do we lose that salvation? Where is that absolute line? If I gave it too much thought I would tremble uncontrollably thinking that at one slip over that line I would be thrown into hell. Remember what Paul said? We are–Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. We were elected or chosen by Him. Reformists mistakenly take that as an act of Sovereignty. Yet it says, based on FOREKNOWLEDGE. We understand that we are saved before we were born. That’s in God’s eye because there is no time with Him. On this planet we have time and so that happened to us on a particular day. When it happened we knew we were saved as we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. Can God go back through his declaration of Salvation and the Sealing to “unsave” us. That would be against the entire idea of Salvation without works because at some point in your theory, it turns to works to keep our salvation. Very frightening.
Let’s do some Scripture proof. Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Of whom are we speaking here? Jesus. Jesus is able to keep us from falling. keep who from falling? Christians. those who are saved. Now, if we lost our salvation Jesus was either a liar and could not keep us from falling or believed He could but was impotent. If He is able He will keep us from falling. We know it is God’s desire for all to be saved but it is equally obvious that he doesn’t force any and most will be lost. However those the Father gives the son can not be lost.
Another verse to consider is:Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I have heard the argument, “but we can jump” Not so because we are also part of “No one” and if we were able to jump the scripture is of no effect.
On the issue of how evil a person can get yet not lose their salvation I respectfully submit the following:1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
You know the story. The man was having sex with his father’s wife. I assume his step mother. The Church was involved with the sin in as much as they allowed it. Paul said turn him over to Satan. In other words kick him out of Church so Satan can destroy him. The Greek means to annihilate. His life on earth would be know more. He also attests that his spirit would be saved.
Oh, the scripture you mentioned about the adulterers, fornicators… not entering into the Kingdom of heaven is correct. It also mentions that liars and gossipers would not enter also. I have lied and gossiped. you might say oh, that’s for chronic liars… How chronic? If you rob one bank you are a bank robber and if you say one lie you are a liar. Once we are saved sin no longer has it’s penalty because we are not under the law. As far as this life is concerned, one jot or tittle will not pass away. Until when? Until Jesus returns. So what does that mean. God will chastise those He loves and commits crimes as we are all Non Pecare Non Pecare. Not able not to sin. (Some worse than others) However there is no punishment eternally for the saved.
Okay, one more argument which I am hoping is challenging you to re-evaluate the scriptures and not encouraging a battle of the minds because I am sure you are gifted enough to tire me out.
Consider this: when Adam and Eve sinned, you and I and the rest of the world were together right there with them. We were in their DNA. When they were kicked out of Eden, we were also. The Bible tells us through one man sin entered into the world and with sin, death. We were condemned there and then. God as you know also had a plan of redemption. It was to eradicate that sin in the garden that separated us from God. We sin because we are sinners. That is our nature. We struggle and try our best not to secure our place in heaven but to show love and obedience to a God who gave His all for us.
We are separated only because of that one act of disobedience. We all sin and if their is a point where we lose that salvation, I think God would tell us, warn us as to not cross that line. However, once we are adopted as sons, he in no wise casts us out but His blood has spoken for the vilest offender.
Can your own child become un born?
We used to joke about those who believed they could lose their salvation and then regain it by repenting. We would say they were “Born again , again.”
The Bible says Come, let us reason together. This response is accompanied by a prayer that in the end, we will both agree.
Pastor, thanks for your response. I will meditate upon it. God bless.
“Yet with your conclusion we can become unsaved by works or the lack thereof.”“at what point do we lose that salvation? Where is that absolute line.”“Remember what Paul said? We are–Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”“Can God go back through his declaration of Salvation and the Sealing to “unsave” us.”“Of whom are we speaking here? Jesus. Jesus is able to keep us from falling.”“Another verse to consider is: Joh 10:29..”
“I respectfully submit the following: 1Co 5:5..”The Greek means to annihilate. His life on earth would be know more. He also attests that his spirit would be saved.” “It also mentions that liars and gossipers would not enter also. I have lied and gossiped. you might say oh, that’s for chronic liars… How chronic? If you rob one bank you are a bank robber and if you say one lie you are a liar.”“We are separated only because of that one act of disobedience.” “We all sin and if their is a point where we lose that salvation, I think God would tell us, warn us as to not cross that line.”“We used to joke about those who believed they could lose their salvation and then regain it by repenting. We would say they were “Born again , again.”<
As said, as long as we can repent then we still have the Holy Spirit, even if grieving Him, thus there is no becoming born again, again. If born again souls die in final apostasy then they will have rejected God's will for them, for which He provided for in giving Christ and the Holy Spirit, and like those rejected the feast prepared those who were bidden to the wedding of His Son, (Mt. 22:1-7) this does not impugn upon the ability of the King, but renders those who spurn so great salvation worthy of greater damnation than those who knew not. (Lk. 12:42-48)