Does the Bible Teach ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’?

CHARLES TEMPLETON (L), A CONTEMPORARY OF YOUNG BILLY GRAHAM (R), FELL AWAY FROM HIS FAITH AND BECAME AND ATHEIST.

A recent sermon by Pastor David Jeremiah has been weighing heavily upon my mind.

He recounted the true-life story of contemporaries William Franklin Graham and Charles Templeton, up and coming young evangelists who began their ministries during the 1940s.

Most thought Templeton, rather than Graham, would achieve greater things in the name of the Lord.

But, in fact, the former fell away from his Christian faith – actually declaring himself atheist – while the great Billy Graham remained a good and faithful servant of the Most High.

Pastor Jeremiah shared the story of Graham and Templeton to remind his congregation (as well as those of us watching on TV or listening on radio) that, as Christ followers, “we are expected to run with endurance the race that has been set before us.”

Yet, in his next breath, the pastor said that, while Templeton did not finish the race he started, he still has a place in God’s kingdom.

Because, said Pastor Jeremiah, it mattered not that Templeton renounced the Christian faith he espoused as a young evangelist, nor that he went to his grave an atheist, since he one time gave his life to the Lord, he’s secure for all eternity.

That is the doctrine preached in many, if not most Christian churches, with which I have the most difficulty:

Once saved, always saved.

No matter how it is preached, or by whom it is preached – including Pastor Jeremiah, whom I greatly admire – I am unable to accept it.

For why would the Apostle Paul encourage us to run with endurance the race set before us if simply answering an altar call one Sunday gives us a lifetime Get Out Of Hell Free card?

And speaking of the Apostle Paul, suppose his life story was reversed. Suppose he spent the first part of his adult life preaching Christ’s salvation, but the second part persecuting Christians.

Would he be today in Paradise?

I think not.

“For it is impossible,” the Scripture warns, “for those who were once enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”

The takeaway from that Scripture is that it is not enough to give our lives to Christ for a season, then fall away from our faith. We do not have a free pass to sin as it pleases us. We are expected to abide in Christ, as He abides in us; to live our lives according to his Word.

So those of us who believe ourselves saved should not be deceived. The Scripture warns, “Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Those who abide in such sins will spend eternity separated from their Creator. Even if they were one-time Christ followers, like Charles Templeton.

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Comments

  1. It has been awhile since the above posts, but I am responding in October of 2014 because I became interested in Charles Templeton and saw article on an internet search. I am writing this in case any others who read this in the coming days or years happen upon this article and read the comments. I feel led by the Lord to do so, so who knows…if you are reading this, maybe this is for you. :)

    It is written primarily in response to several of the above posts, especially Lee James, who differs theologically with the ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED doctrinal belief of some believers.

    I am a simple layperson, but I believe several of you are probably pastors who have spent way too much time listening to people instead of reading, studying, and knowing God’s Word. Please, please, please remember that salvation is not now, not ever in our hands to OBTAIN or MAINTAIN. The Bible is so very clear on this. God never wants us to doubt our salvation. It is not really “ours” to doubt.

    Hebrews 7:18 “He has given us both his promise and his oath, two things we can completely count on, for it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to tell a lie. Now all those who flee to him to save them can take new courage when they hear such assurances from God; now they can know without doubt that he will give them the salvation he has promised them. This CERTAIN HOPE of being saved is a strong and trustworthy ANCHOR for our souls, connecting us with God himself behind the sacred curtains of heaven, where Christ has gone ahead to plead for us from his position as our High Priest, with the honor and rank of Melchizedek.” (TLB)

    Lee James, you are confusing salvation with sanctification. The act of accepting God’s marriage proposal and getting married to God is an all at once, one-time act. THAT is salvation…as talked about in Hebrews…his promise (the proposal) and his oath (the marriage). The lifelong process of marriage is SANCTIFICATION….not to be confused with SALVATION. Salvation is not by our works…only the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. You can’t do a thing to earn salvation…you can’t bring a dowry to the marriage, in other words, because the Bridegroom won’t accept it. Your works can never be rich enough, costly enough, or worth more than the blood of our perfect Bridegroom, Jesus. He has provided all, just as God Himself provided the sacrificial ram for Isaac. You come to the marriage as you are, sins and all, and Christ forgives them all. He forgives them all…he is forgiving them all…he will forgive them all…it is the great mystery of the continually forgiving power of the blood of Jesus.

    I have been a Baptist all of my life. I have never, ever heard a pastor say “You can be saved and never worry about how you live after that. Get your fire insurance…step right up!” That is a mis-interpretation of those who confuse SALVATION with the SANCTIFICATION process.

    That being said, the act of salvation IS, and was designed to be, VERY EASY, JUST LIKE ACCEPTING A MARRIAGE PROPOSAL AND GETTING MARRIED.
    Romans 10:8-10 “For salvation that comes from trusting Christ—which is what we preach—is already within easy reach of each of us; in fact, it is as near as our own hearts and mouths. For if you tell others with your own mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord, and believe in your own heart that God has raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.”

    The difficult part of the marriage is not the proposal, nor the ceremony, nor the honeymoon (the “being sealed” by the Holy Spirit). That is a one-time, pain-free (for us) gift of the mercy and grace of God. It is the lifetime of commitment and painstaking work (by God) it takes to mold and shape His bride into the image of the Bridegroom, Jesus, to ready her for eternal Priesthood. The bride is very obstinate…and stiff-necked…and needs lots and lots of chipping and molding and reshaping. The process is very painful, though beautiful, for her, though not because of the work of her hands. God alone has done the work. “Every good and perfect gift is from the Father of Lights…”

    God is forever fully committed to the marriage…just like Hosea. We, like Gomer, are the ones who sin. We are the adulters…we sin and must confess our sins to our Bridegroom. God never divorces us…we are “engraved on the palm of his hand” and “sealed with his Holy Spirit.” Just like Hosea never divorced Gomer. In fact, when we, in misguided arrogance, say that someone has LOST THEIR SALVATION, we are calling God a liar, because we imply that God has reneged on his promise and his oath and withdrawn his covenant from his Bride.

    I know people don’t INTEND to say that; rather, they are implying that the Bride (the believer) has not done her part in the bargain. However, the BRIDE NEVER HAD A PART IN THE BARGAIN. ONLY GOD CAN SAVE…ONLY GOD HAS ANYTHING TO OFFER IN THE MARRIAGE BARGAIN. EVEN IF THE BRIDE TRIED TO OFFER SOMETHING, HER FEEBLE OFFERING WOULD BE REJECTED BY THE ONE WHO HAS DONE THE WORK…JESUS. “For it is by GRACE you have been saved, AND NOT BY WORKS, lest anyone should boast.”

    Boast about what? THAT THEY HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE GIVING AND RECEIVING OF THE MARRIAGE VOWS. If we had something to offer in the covenant, we would have a say in its fulfillment. That is why we don’t, because the act of salvation rests in the hands of God alone. God does the wooing, the calling, the providing of the dowry (His Son), the dressing for the ceremony (the blood of His Son), the performance of the ceremonial vows, the writing of the marriage contract and its binding seal (the Holy Spirit). Our part, as the Bride, is to accept what He is offering and then allow Him to work through us to sanctify us and produce fruit. WE’VE GOT A BARGAIN INDEED, AND BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A BARGAIN FOR US, MANY PEOPLE CAN’T ACCEPT THAT THEY REALLY, TRULY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH BRINGING ANY OF IT ABOUT BECAUSE THE WORLD DOESN’T WORK THAT WAY….SATAN DOESN’T WORK THAT WAY. Only God Alone DOES BECAUSE ONLY HE CAN!

    Now, OUR faithfulness to the marriage allows God to work with us to produce fruit…just like a married couple produces children. Our father and our Bridegroom delight in children and take great delight and joy in our fruitful acts of faithfulness, perseverance, running the race set before us. We can’t accomplish anything on our own…we always must be connected to the Bridegroom “behind the sacred curtain of heaven.”

    We do not work to stay married…we work to make our marriage stronger…to produce fruit…not to re-initiate the marriage contract over and over and over for the rest of our lives.

    To me, that is the real lie of Satan…he keeps people who are worried about or don’t feel ETERNALLY SECURE in their salvation (marriage) to God wondering whether or not the marriage ceremony really took place their whole lives rather than getting on with the important work of producing fruit in the marriage. Notice I said “worried about or don’t feel” because eternal security is a condition of the marriage…non-negotiable…it isn’t a feeling or act we can attain on our part. It is the dowry brought by God HIMSELF to the marriage. And he NEVER, EVER LIES. PRAISE GOD! HE IS INCAPABLE OF LYING OR GOING BACK ON HIS PROMISES!!!!

    When we doubt our salvation, we aren’t really doubting ourselves and our works but GOD’S FAITHFULNESS TO HIS PROMISE AND HIS OATH. THAT IS THE REAL LIE, AND YES, IT IS AUTHORED BY THE FATHER OF LIES HIMSELF…SATAN.

    NOW HERE IS WHERE THE DIFFICULTY FOR FELLOW BELIEVERS COMES IN. It is in ascertaining who is a true kinsman and who is not.

    You see, just like in a real marriage, none of us are truly privy to look into the heart of each bride to see her true feelings. Is she really committed? Did she accept the proposal with the right heart…or did she even truly accept it at all? Is she truly in love with the Bridegroom?

    We don’t have to question the motives of the Bridegroom…Jesus. His commitment is unfaltering.

    And herein lies the essence of Jesus’ parable about the seeds and the types of “soil” receiving the seed. CHRIST ALONE IS THE ONLY ONE PRESENT WITH A PERSON IN THE ACT OF SALVATION…THE PROPOSAL, MARRIAGE, AND HONEYMOON. Yes, we fellow believers are witnesses when someone confesses before others that they have asked Christ into their hearts. But only Christ truly SEES the heart. But we can, all of us, Christians and non-Christians alike, see the evidence of the marriage. It is in the fruit…what is produced in the course of the marriage.

    Here, the true motive of the heart is bourn out. That is why Jesus didn’t use the words “Christian” or “believer” in his parable, Lee James…he only uses soil type. You are assuming a real marriage, or salvation, has taken place in the hearts of every “soil type” (or person) presented in the parable, and Jesus is explaining to the contrary. Most of the soil types WEREN’T TRULY EVER MARRIED TO BEGIN WITH, thus were never Christians. They looked like it, they played around with the idea, even took it up for a while, but never truly accepted it so that it took root, sprouted, and grew. To continue the marriage analogy, they put the ring on their finger but never went through the actual marriage ceremony. Some give the ring back, renounce Christ, and go on their way. Others wear the ring without the covenant, just like the parable about the person who “snuck into the marriage banquet”…but like them, they are and will be discovered by Christ and cast into outer darkness.

    That is why Paul, other writers of the New Testament, and Jesus Himself, encourage us to demonstrate our faithfulness to the marriage, to Jesus, our whole lives…to bear fruit and lead others to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. To demonstrate the beautiful (yet painful!) changes God has wrought in his beloved brides (each of us) and his Bride (the church). To shout from the mountaintops that we are happily married to Christ, to show our wedding ring off to anyone and everyone who will hear, for it is set with the Pearl of Great Price…Jesus Himself!

    What a stumbling block it is for others who think someone is saved, only to find out they have abandoned their “faith” for the cares of the world. Satan can keep a person, or even a whole church or denomination, for that matter, bound up with worrying about whether or not that person was saved when it is so easy to see that the marriage never truly took place to begin with.

    With joy I can say that oftentimes the person truly did get saved but because of circumstances walked away from the marriage for a time. God, in his faithfulness, like Hosea, allows those who are truly HIS to return from the pigpens and brothels of life. Others who are truly saved but still very stubborn, resisting the molding and refining of the Holy Spirit, die as a result of the consequences of their unfaithfulness and “only make it into heaven by the skin of their teeth” bearing very little, if any, fruit.

    And then, there are the others. The Charles Templetons. Those who looked married but never truly entered the covenant to begin with. You know those people when they renounce their “faith”, turn their backs on Christ, never to return. They even write books entitled, “Farewell to God.” The ones to whom God says, “Depart from me….for I never knew you.” The most tragic, devastating words ever spoken by God.

    Here is where I part ways with David Jeremiah, whom I also love and admire. We must be very, very careful declaring someone saved when the evidence of the fruit of their lives clearly screams to the contrary. I think most would agree that the evidence bourn out by Charles Templeton seems to show he was never saved. I don’t think this is a difficult theological thing to ascertain. God, in his wisdom and through the Holy Spirit, lets us hear his voice, as sheep hear their shepherd’s voice, and he also lets us hear the voices of those who are our kinsmen, redeemed by our Kinsmen Redeemer.

    Hear me…he WILL NOT LET HIS BRIDE, THE REMNANT, BE SEDUCED BY THE SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST, not individually as we are being sanctified, nor in the end times, when the physical antichrist is on the earth. Do any of us doubt that Judas was an object intended for destruction? No. This is clearly stated in the Scriptures. There are some who put on the airs of salvation for a time but are not truly saved. God still uses them for his purposes, as he used Judas, Saul, Esau, Ishmael, and many others. But they are not his. Who knows but that Charles Templeton was an object intended for destruction that God used to bring about a crisis of faith in Billy Graham so that Graham could evaluate the strength of his own faith? I am not saying he was…but could it be possible since there are so many other examples in both the Old and New Testaments? Only God has the wisdom to know that.

    In later years, it seems Charles Templeton missed the idea of Jesus, as evidenced in his interview with Lee Strobel. But, by the evidence of his fruit, it seems Jesus never truly knew him, nor did he know Jesus. Otherwise, Templeton would not have, could not have, ever, ever, left Jesus and not been restored, because He would have been bound by blood to the Bridegroom that never fails to help us and restore us, even in our periods of unbelief. We can take that to the bank…so we don’t spend our time worrying about our salvation or that we might lose it. My greatest hope is that Templeton had a moment at the end akin to the professor in “God’s Not Dead” and came back to Christ before crossing into eternity.

    In the end, though, it is truly only God’s place to judge Templeton. He knows Templeton’s heart…we can only see the witness of his fruit and allow it to teach us to ascertain the essence of Salvation, Oneness in the marriage relationship with Christ, a thing that can’t ever be undone but also can’t be pretended. The truth of it WILL be bourn out in the life of the individual, because “God…who created a good work in you…will be FAITHFUL TO COMPLETE IT.” And since we have been bought with the blood of the LIVING WORD Himself, Jesus Christ, that Word, “will NEVER RETURN VOID.” Those who belong to Christ WILL STAY IN CHRIST…we will never renounce our faith in Jesus, though at times we may, like Gomer, cheat on Him, grieve Him and need restoration, and go through a lot of extra wandering in the wilderness in our stubbornness. We may miss some blessings and rewards and be sorry for it some day, when we could have had more crowns to cast at the feet of our Bridegroom, Jesus. But we WILL OVERCOME, just as Jesus encourages us to do in Revelation, because we are ONE WITH THE ONE WHO HAS OVERCOME!!!!

    When a person strays from God, we should help gently restore him the to faith and “pray without ceasing.” We are not bringing him back to get married once again….he is saved…married…he just needs to renew his commitment to the marriage and continue to walk in faithfulness. If a person continues to reject God, as Charles Templeton did, we cannot ever, ever stop praying, but we are to “brush the dust off feet and leave that city” as Christ instructed his disciples to do. The Holy Spirit will pray for what we don’t know how to pray, whether the person needs to be truly brought into the marriage or simply restored to the marriage. We can’t know this…only the Holy Spirit can “divide (or discern) between joint and marrow, soul and spirit.” But we can know that those who belong to Christ will be brought back into the fold if they stray, not by good works but because of the faithfulness of the ONE TO WHOM THEY ARE BOUND FOREVER!

    We should encourage each other to walk with Christ…to bear fruit. This is our witness that our belief is real, that we are truly married and proud of it! If all believers would do this, we would never have to spend time debating whether or not one can lose salvation! That issue only comes up when someone is NOT walking in the faith! Let us not be stumbling blocks, so that we weigh down our brothers and sisters with petty debates and arguments, that anyone should ever have to wonder if we are saved, but let us be bold believers who stand firmly on the OATH AND PROMISE of our wonderful Savior and Eternal Bridegroom!

    And our Bridegroom is returning…Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!

  2. tommy stevenson says:

    No wonder why sermons on hell is so very scarce. It is because so many preachers give their followers the impression that they are okay once they make a declaration of faith in Christ. OSAS is a dangerous misleading lie.Am going with JESUS he said IF you continuein my word then you are my desciple.That statement is enough to obliterate the OSAS nonesense.

  3. No one but God knows whether Templeton was ever ‘born again. If he wasn’t, he only started the race in the flesh. That is what I believe. I also believe God reveals himself in some way to a person who believes on Jesus to salvation in a way he will never become an atheist, He may go astray and backslide, but atheism? Never.

    • tommy stevenson says:

      By your post I can tell you are one of those who defend OSAS at the sacrifice of truth weather your stance is motivated by pride or ignorance I urge you to consider your ways and pray GOD for revalation

      • pastorjackwilson says:

        I have written substantially on this subject and feel not compelled to write more. Those who come in with a twisted scripture and try to scare the weak are, in essence, unsure of their own salvation. Their true repentance probably was not true but like Judas, knew the pain of sin but never knew the redemption.

  4. douglas pearsall says:

    I believe Satan is the father of OSAS and the Lord has laid a burden on my heart to earnestly contened for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.I once believed in this lie but have been graciously delivered from it and mean to combat and expose it for what it is by teaching the truth in hopes of reaching the hearts of those who haven’t yet so hardened their hearts to the truth that God has given them over to it.2 Thessalonians chapter 2.My fight is not against people but satan,Ephesians 6:12.

    • Anonymous says:

      Agreed ! I further say this ; No wonder nobody seems to preach on hell anymore one gets the impression that the church dont need that since all ther members once made a decleration of faith they are all fixed for eternity THATS ONE BIG DANGEROUS LIE I Pray GOD this deception be exposed speedily

  5. I wholeheartedly agree with this blog article. (I’m new here but I like this blog, well done! :))

    Why don’t I believe in “eternal security”? Well first of all, I didn’t come to faith through other Christians. Jesus came to me privately and called me to be his, so then I studied the scriptures alone, only joining a church many years later so that I could be baptised.

    The first time I went to church, I was shocked and appalled to find that a “false Gospel” has become so prevalent within the Church, the false Gospel that says two things:

    1) Not only will ANY kind of shoddy, insincere, token “faith” save a person, but
    2) They will be saved the very first moment they believe! “Throw your Bible in the bin, you’re saved!”

    Sorry, but this “Gospel” is not written in my Bible anywhere! My Bible is full of dozens of warnings in every epistle, warning us to persevere, to continue, to remain in God, to stand firm during the trials, to obey Jesus and turn from all sin, which leads to the growth of fruit.

    Here is one of the lies Satan uses to promote this false gospel. See if you can spot the lie:
    “We are not saved by works. Therefore we don’t need to DO anything to be saved, because DOING things is works!”

    I hope everyone can see the lie there, which is that “works” has been extended to mean EVERYTHING! Now the New Testament is full of advice and instruction. For instance, we need to turn from sin. Turning from sin is not “works”. We need to love each other. Loving each other is not “works”. We need to forgive our enemies. Forgiving our enemies is not “works”. The New Testament tells us to do lots of things. If we take these instructions to be “works” then we call God a liar. No, “works” is the principle that we can EARN salvation by merit of good deeds. Whereas the Gospel of Jesus is that salvation is given based on our true, sincere and active faith of obedience, on the basis that we are set free from sin by our baptism into Jesus’ death and given a brand new righteous heart through the Holy Spirit, on which basis we are born again spiritually.

    To any who believe in this terrible Gospel of “say some prayer and be saved forevermore”, I have to wonder if they have even ever studied Jesus’ teachings about the Kingdom of God?

    The Parable of the Sower appears 6 times in the Bible, making it far and away the most prominent of all the parables, and all the scriptures. EVERY believer should have prayed over The Parable of the Sower time after time after time and has no excuse.

    In The Parable of the Sower, our Lord tell us quite plainly that there are 3 types of Christian, and 2 of them are going to hell. The first type of Christian has a shallow faith, and so will believe for a time but then renounce their faith. The next kind of Christian has a weak faith that is compromised by pleasure and worry, and never goes on to bear fruit. It is only the Christian who endures until the end and bears fruit who will be given eternal life and born again spiritually. This doesn’t require any “works”, it requires faithfulness and spiritual dedication. Not outwards works or rule-keeping, but continuing in faith and being cleansed from all unrighteousness. Simply put, believing and following Jesus.

    Everyone who doesn’t follow Jesus is just a dead, sinful human being, who will be thrown in the fire and destroyed. God will allow no sinful people into his glorious and holy Kingdom. All of us who hate the world and love God will be rescued from this wicked place when our Lord returns. But few will find their way to life, says the Lord Jesus.

    Actually, I am less concerned about people’s belief in “eternal security” and more concerned by their NEED for it. Surely anyone who loves the Lord Jesus and has repented of their sin and given their life over to him and walks with him and talk to him, such people have no need to seek “security” of their salvation, since they know Him in their lives personally, of their own faith? Therefore I suspect it is those seeking “assurance” who are most likely to be the ones who continue to live in sin and wonder: can they get away with it?

    The answer is no, they will not get away with it. Jesus died to cancel the sins of our PAST, not so that we can go on sinning willfully and keep on heaping YET MORE punishment upon the one we supposedly love. After our repentance, if we become aware of new sin in our hearts, we must bring it to God and turn from it in obedience. Those who willfully continue sinning are in danger of hell, unless they get on their knees and repent, and seek, and ask, and call out to God to be changed. God will never say “no” to such a request, and God will take away every sin we ask to be taken away, but only a repentant sinner can make such a request and sadly many people in the church have never been convicted of their sin and have never truly hated themselves and had faith in the Good News that God can not only forgive them but make them righteous.

    • I will answer this diatribe once and only once as it is tiring to even read and has more holes than Swiss cheese. I will answer it not for the sake of the author (although I pray he too will benefit from it) but mainly for those weaker Christians who might read this and become overly fearful of a vengeful God who having already saved your life from the raging waters of sin will without thought throw you back in as oufa iled to love your brother as yourself.
      One verse shows this so well:Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
      This council had mentioned that they could not possibly encumber the new Christians with laws even they themselves could not keep.

      The writer suggests he was saved by God alone. News flash, we were all saved by God alone. However, unlike Paul, the world has been given the body of Christ to help you in your journey of being a better Christian. Bible studies, worship, fellowship…all meant for the glory of God and the building of the body. You might think you are John the Baptist but without using Scripture in your diatribe only enforces your lack of spiritual discipline and establishes another heresy and personal theory which is not valid.

      Eph 2:8, 9 never said you should not strive to be a good Christian. It said, your works will not save you.
      You seem so knowlegeable in your own eyes, which sin sends you to hell or how many times can we sin before being discarded by the God who died to pay for our original salvation?

      You say you were shocked when you finally went to Church. I wonder if you attend even now but you stated: “1) Not only will ANY kind of shoddy, insincere, token “faith” save a person, but
      2) They will be saved the very first moment they believe! “Throw your Bible in the bin, you’re saved!”

      I am so sorry you found a church token faith saves you but that is a different argument which you won’t hear from me. True faith saves a person and that salvation is forever.
      To answer your #2 I will use: “Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. ”

      Lest they believe and be saved indicating….Hold on….If you believe, you are saved.
      Here is another quote of yours in which I agree: “To any who believe in this terrible Gospel of “say some prayer and be saved forevermore”, I have to wonder if they have even ever studied Jesus’ teachings about the Kingdom of God?”

      BUT- you are now off topic and speaking of easy belierverism. Real Christians do not believe in that either. That is not an argument for eternal security..

      “In The Parable of the Sower, our Lord tell us quite plainly that there are 3 types of Christian, and 2 of them are going to hell…”
      Nope, He tells us of the unsaved who has the word snatched from him or the saved that become what I call “worthless” Christians. Saved but do nothing.

      “God will allow no sinful people into his glorious and holy Kingdom.” right again. How does sin get removed? ~~~Nothing but the blood of Jesus~~~~ Which sins have by your obeying the law, have been removed. None , I gather.
      1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

      Which law will save you?
      Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

      This is a humorous statement:”The answer is no, they will not get away with it. Jesus died to cancel the sins of our PAST, not so that we can go on sinning willfully and keep on heaping YET MORE punishment upon the one we supposedly love.”

      It’s like saying my mother delivered me pure but during my life I sinned so she ceased to be my mom.
      Jesus died for our sins over 2000 years ago, Dying once for all. He died for those who will go to hell also. Yet only those that accept the free gift will be saved.

      Salvation and eternal security comes from a loving God who holds it out to us if only we will come to fait.

      So as I said, I will not respond no matter how tempting a response might be. There are other Christians on here that can handle it.

      • As a rule, friend, we do not post anonymous comments. We will make a a rare exception in this case because you have taken the time and trouble to compose a reply to a comment posted earlier today.

      • Hey JP, It’s me Pastor Jack–Don’t know why I did not show up. Sorry.

      • I thought I recognized your voice, Pastor. God bless.

  6. There is no reply option to your latest reply Jack, so i will reply in the combox at the end, though i hope that will not hinder seeing the continuity.

    You state, “some things are so obvious and while some people like to take a scripture and twist it like it’s never been twisted before, I am a simple guy. I just read what it says.”

    This is close to being insolent, as i am not twisting Scripture while you proceed to render being “fallen from grace,” and making Jesus of “no effect,” who will profit them “nothing,” as just meaning that they no longer are interacting with Christ” and chastisement, yet the most straight forward and simple meaning of “nothing” as in Christ gaining them nothing, and of “no effect” as in Christ becoming of no effect, is that it means just that, nothing, as they would now be outside the salvific grace of God that is in Christ Jesus, which one enters into by faith, and is kept therein thru faith.

    However, this most natural meaning of “nothing” is disallowed because it does not conform to your OSAS doctrine, and which prevents you from seeing or even allowing that this and other texts warn of forfeiting what faith obtained.

    You justify this by trying to argue that since no person who tells a lie can gain heaven, then converts who deny the Lord and depart from the faith, such as the Galatians were in danger of doing (and Templeton did likewise in turning toward atheism, even if OSAS proponents must disallow that he ever was saved) and or by willful impenitent continuance in sin, (Heb. 10:25ff) are still saved by the very Christ whom they deny.

    However, the reason the exclusion of liars or anyone who commits sin (Rv. 21:8,27) from eternal life does not exclude believers is because they are justified by faith which cleanses and sanctifies, a faith which characteristically follows the Lord, (Jn. 10:27) and repents from sin, while converts who die having impenitently denied the Lord in doctrine or in deed (as described: http://peacebyjesuscom.blogspot.com/2012/10/is-one-saved-always-saved-correct.html, and , which are referred to after their characteristics in Rv. 21:8,27; 22:15), have forfeited what faith appropriated are not in the salvific grace of God.

    You further ask,”Now, let’s go back to my unanswered questions- At what point do we lose our salvation? I know what point I get saved so it should not be a difficult answer. Please give Bible reference.”

    The answer has already been given (and more in my response here: http://peacebyjesuscom.blogspot.com/2012/11/osas-continued.html), Gal. 5:1-4 being one text (but which must disallow), which (as with Heb. 10:25 and other texts) reveals that as one is justified by faith by true repentant faith in the Lord Jesus (so that he/she would go to be with the Lord if they died that day), and which faith is manifest by changes in heart and life attesting to faith-repentance, so one loses salvation by likewise “denying the Lord that bought them” as submission to the Judaizers would be doing, making Christ of NO effect. And which is also done by denying Him as Lord by deciding to will-fully and impenitently engage in sin, and thus such usually separate themselves from a holy congregation. (Heb. 10:25-39)

    “But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. ” (Hebrews 3:6)

    “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. ” (Hebrews 3:12)

    For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.. as such “hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Heb. 10:26,29ff)

    Yet, as a conversion may not be immediately clearly evident as true, likewise the choice to deny the faith may not always be readily apparent. But as 1John and other texts testify, a true saint is known by characteristically practicing righteousness, and repentance when convicted of not doing so, while denying the faith is manifest by overall practicing righteousness without Godly sorrow.

    • pastorjackwilson says:

      I will respectfully ask to end this conversation. One, you are getting testy, my words are becoming insulting to you which has never been my desire to do. Two, you are now going on and on repeating the same things which still does not change the meaning. Three – you are determined in your heart that you can lose your salvation and I don’t believe you will change that opinion so I waste my time to try to convince you. I will however give a parting shot. My belief (theory) is just as if one believes that Jesus paid the price for their sins but still needs Mary as a go between-that person never was saved as they added Mary to the equation. Additionally, if someone believes Jesus died for them while at the same time believe they could lose their salvation, they equally are as lost adding that Jesus could not keep them from falling as the Bible confessed Him doing.

      You disreagard the salvation of the man in Cor. having an affair with his father’s wife. You ignore the passage that says no one can remove you… The list will go on and on but you are seeing it your way, so that is what you will see.

  7. Actually, I only see a truncated reply from me to you Jack, which was not due to my editing, and the reason it was (admittedly too) long is because I was attempting to respond to most all of your 1,000+ word post.

    Maybe it would be better to ask you to explain what is meant by the texts I see warning believers of denying the faith, and forfeiting what was appropriated by it. I would begin with Gal. 5:1:4:

    “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

    Thanks

    • pastorjackwilson says:

      Sorry, Like I said, I wasn’t trying to put you down by my comment. It also was not too long just too out of the range of normal reading. Now you give me a verse that exhorts believers to be the best they can be in the faith. It warns them not to return to bondage, not to put things unto themselves that the Jews previously could not handle. In simpler terms, not to become legalistic. It in no way refers to a loss of salvation. Plenty of believers are off on some of their beliefs. Example, some believe they should worship on Sunday. That does not disqualify from salvation. it does bog them down in legalism.

      • The reason my reply was almost twice as long as yours was because doctrine requires more than a superficial examination, and dismissing Gal. 5:1-4 as simply being an exhortation “to be the best they can be in the faith,” and to avoid legalism is just that.

        Paul is not simply telling these believers to avoid legalism in oirder to be better Christians, but warning that if they go thru with giving assent to a different gospel in which salvation is obtained by obedience to all the law, including the ceremonial ordinances fulfilled in Christ, then “Christ shall profit you nothing,” as Christ will become “of no effect unto you,” “ye are fallen from grace.”

        You must therefore explain how being fallen from grace and Christ becoming of no effect unto them does not mean what this normally would imply, which is the opposite of what faith in Christ effected.

        We can go to other verses after examining these, and please understand that I am not driven by a desire to attack OSAS, as I am willing to believe it as i once did, but I want to go where the truth leads, and thus this is an issue to commitment to sound exegesis more than just defending an interpretive point of doctrine.

      • pastorjackwilson says:

        “The reason my reply was almost twice as long as yours was because doctrine requires more than a superficial examination…” I am sorry you feel I am giving a superficial exam of the subject and also, for the second time, I did not complain about the length of your discussion.
        with that said, some things are so obvious and while some people like to take a scripture and twist it like it’s never been twisted before, I am a simple guy. I just read what it says. We live in a two phase situation. When we are saved we are saved forever, no longer under the law. Being no longer under the law we can no longer be judged by the law however… people use this excuse not to give the the Church because they say they are not under the law. Tet Jesus said not one jot or title will pass away… So what is it? In life we are under the law. God will chastise us for killing, stealing, cursing, gossiping. yet we do not lose our salvation. Remember, it says liars will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Lie once, you are a liar and most people have lied much more than once. Gal merely points out that you are still subject to God’s chastisement.

        Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
        Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
        Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
        Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
        Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

        Now let’s look at these versus without twisting them.
        1-Be strong in the Liberty–what liberty? The freedom of the law and do not tangle yourself in the doctrines that force you to be a slave to the law
        2- If you do that it will get you no where. (Your walk in Christ is inhibited by your doing it “your own way”)
        3- talking about those who are truly unrepentant and a follower of the law not grace-showing those what it is truly like for those who still believe in the law.
        4-If you continue in this way you have disconnected yourself from interacting with Christ. He will say, “Do it your way and see how far it gets you” He will not intervene as long as you have chosen to disobey-
        5-self explanatory
        No mention of losing salvation unless you make it say that.

        Now, let’s go back to my unanswered questions- At what point do we lose our salvation? I know what point I get saved so it should not be a difficult answer. Please give Bible reference.

        Also, if liars go to hell how does anyone escape hell?

  8. How my response to Jack Wilson ended up being rendered as above, I know not, but it needed some editing anyway. What I did is post a response here (http://peacebyjesuscom.blogspot.com/2012/10/is-one-saved-always-saved-correct.html) to this subject, which did not get posted here, and later I will post my edited response to Jack Wilson there as well, if that is OK.

  9. God bless you Jack Wilson; a true testimony to the unmerited gift of Salvation. That, as mentioned, is in Ephesians 2:8,9.

    Also, I would like to bring up the fact that Christians are in the dispensation of Grace (Ephesians 3) and no longer under the Law (Galatians 3.) Romans 10:4 says it best, to mention a few!!!

    I also would like to bring up the fact that “blasphemy” is the only unforgivable sin (Matthew 12:31.)

    God Bless!!!

  10. To those who’ve read this post and find the topic of particular interest, might I direct you to Free Republic, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2928714/posts, where this post also appeared, and where FReepers have an excellent thread going, with astute comments on both sides of the theological debate about eternal security?

  11. Jack Wilson speaks the truth. My reply was more succinct but I agree completely. Perhaps it should be said “once born again, always born again,” because we are.

  12. Mr. Templeton was never truly born again then. I don’t see a born-again Christian ever falling away and becoming an atheist. Stumbling, yes…turning their back entirely…..no.

    • tommy stevenson says:

      Take off your OSAS glasses and look with unbias eyes,and you would see that freedom of choice is not restricted by GOD at any point in ones life.Therefore we are free to make a choice to stay with God or leave Him anytime

  13. Oh JP, after blog after wonderful blog that I have happily agreed with you I now have to respectfully , disagree with you. Although the one scripture you gave seems frightening , I believe you have interpreted it, incorrectly. That it has to do with those exposed to the greatness of God, even participated in Church activities, learning all the buzz words but he was never actually saved. We could probably argue that verse for a long time but as you know as well as I, the bible is not made on one verse but on the entire bible so let’s do this.

    First let’s do the common sense . You rationalize that Paul could not have done the good and then returned to the evil and had gone to heaven.
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    The first explains that we are saved by God’s grace by our faith–not works. Yet with your conclusion we can become unsaved by works or the lack thereof. God, being a truly just God gave us all His rules in the bible so I need to ask, at what point do we lose that salvation? Where is that absolute line? If I gave it too much thought I would tremble uncontrollably thinking that at one slip over that line I would be thrown into hell. Remember what Paul said? We are–Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. We were elected or chosen by Him. Reformists mistakenly take that as an act of Sovereignty. Yet it says, based on FOREKNOWLEDGE. We understand that we are saved before we were born. That’s in God’s eye because there is no time with Him. On this planet we have time and so that happened to us on a particular day. When it happened we knew we were saved as we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise. Can God go back through his declaration of Salvation and the Sealing to “unsave” us. That would be against the entire idea of Salvation without works because at some point in your theory, it turns to works to keep our salvation. Very frightening.

    Let’s do some Scripture proof. Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

    Of whom are we speaking here? Jesus. Jesus is able to keep us from falling. keep who from falling? Christians. those who are saved. Now, if we lost our salvation Jesus was either a liar and could not keep us from falling or believed He could but was impotent. If He is able He will keep us from falling. We know it is God’s desire for all to be saved but it is equally obvious that he doesn’t force any and most will be lost. However those the Father gives the son can not be lost.

    Another verse to consider is:Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I have heard the argument, “but we can jump” Not so because we are also part of “No one” and if we were able to jump the scripture is of no effect.

    On the issue of how evil a person can get yet not lose their salvation I respectfully submit the following:1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    You know the story. The man was having sex with his father’s wife. I assume his step mother. The Church was involved with the sin in as much as they allowed it. Paul said turn him over to Satan. In other words kick him out of Church so Satan can destroy him. The Greek means to annihilate. His life on earth would be know more. He also attests that his spirit would be saved.

    Oh, the scripture you mentioned about the adulterers, fornicators… not entering into the Kingdom of heaven is correct. It also mentions that liars and gossipers would not enter also. I have lied and gossiped. you might say oh, that’s for chronic liars… How chronic? If you rob one bank you are a bank robber and if you say one lie you are a liar. Once we are saved sin no longer has it’s penalty because we are not under the law. As far as this life is concerned, one jot or tittle will not pass away. Until when? Until Jesus returns. So what does that mean. God will chastise those He loves and commits crimes as we are all Non Pecare Non Pecare. Not able not to sin. (Some worse than others) However there is no punishment eternally for the saved.

    Okay, one more argument which I am hoping is challenging you to re-evaluate the scriptures and not encouraging a battle of the minds because I am sure you are gifted enough to tire me out.

    Consider this: when Adam and Eve sinned, you and I and the rest of the world were together right there with them. We were in their DNA. When they were kicked out of Eden, we were also. The Bible tells us through one man sin entered into the world and with sin, death. We were condemned there and then. God as you know also had a plan of redemption. It was to eradicate that sin in the garden that separated us from God. We sin because we are sinners. That is our nature. We struggle and try our best not to secure our place in heaven but to show love and obedience to a God who gave His all for us.

    We are separated only because of that one act of disobedience. We all sin and if their is a point where we lose that salvation, I think God would tell us, warn us as to not cross that line. However, once we are adopted as sons, he in no wise casts us out but His blood has spoken for the vilest offender.
    Can your own child become un born?

    We used to joke about those who believed they could lose their salvation and then regain it by repenting. We would say they were “Born again , again.”

    The Bible says Come, let us reason together. This response is accompanied by a prayer that in the end, we will both agree.

    • Pastor, thanks for your response. I will meditate upon it. God bless.

    • “Yet with your conclusion we can become unsaved by works or the lack thereof.”“at what point do we lose that salvation? Where is that absolute line.”“Remember what Paul said? We are–Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”“Can God go back through his declaration of Salvation and the Sealing to “unsave” us.”“Of whom are we speaking here? Jesus. Jesus is able to keep us from falling.”“Another verse to consider is: Joh 10:29..”

      “I respectfully submit the following: 1Co 5:5..”The Greek means to annihilate. His life on earth would be know more. He also attests that his spirit would be saved.” “It also mentions that liars and gossipers would not enter also. I have lied and gossiped. you might say oh, that’s for chronic liars… How chronic? If you rob one bank you are a bank robber and if you say one lie you are a liar.”“We are separated only because of that one act of disobedience.” “We all sin and if their is a point where we lose that salvation, I think God would tell us, warn us as to not cross that line.”“We used to joke about those who believed they could lose their salvation and then regain it by repenting. We would say they were “Born again , again.”<

      As said, as long as we can repent then we still have the Holy Spirit, even if grieving Him, thus there is no becoming born again, again. If born again souls die in final apostasy then they will have rejected God's will for them, for which He provided for in giving Christ and the Holy Spirit, and like those rejected the feast prepared those who were bidden to the wedding of His Son, (Mt. 22:1-7) this does not impugn upon the ability of the King, but renders those who spurn so great salvation worthy of greater damnation than those who knew not. (Lk. 12:42-48)

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